What can we learn from our experiences of systems transformations?

On October 10 and 11, 2023, we held the first pair of Zoom calls for Book Club members. The invitation was to share: What can we learn from our first- and second-hand experiences with the transformations of different systems, about how such transformations occur? Around 100 members participated in these calls, from all around the world.

Here are the recordings of the calls, a list of the experiences shared, and the chats from these calls.

Please add your comments at the bottom of this post.

The video recordings of the calls (including the chats)

Here is the recording of the call on October 10 and here is the one from October 11.

The systems transformation experiences shared on these calls

Here is a table of all of the experiences shared, with each row being "an attempted system transformation that you know about (whether you see it as 'successful' or 'unsuccessful,' 'positive' or 'negative')," together with notes on the system’s characteristic set of behaviours before and after the attempted transformation, and the actions that made major contributions to the transformation.

Here is a lightly-clustered list of these experiences: 

• Campaign to entrench environmental rights and the environment in Canada’s Constitution; correlation of economic prosperity, social prosperity, and environmental sustainability in Africa
• Family law for LGBTQ people; access to justice family court South Africa; a colonial justice system
• Agri-food system; a just and equitable system to enable food security in New York; agricultural and local market system served by microfinance bank in rural South-Eastern Ghana; the local food system in north-western Greece; the system that shapes the availability and consumption of fresh food in urban, predominantly African American communities in a region that has experienced significant disinvestment in Ohio; food/diet; agricultural value chains and market access in light of new laws and sustainability demands
• International coordination around climate change mitigation; community resilience to flooding in Calgary; land conservation in the Chesapeake Bay Watershed
• A automotive corporation in East Germany; an international corporation; product development in a technology firm in Europe; a healthcare tech company; a shift to sustainability in a private company in Brazil; a large financial institution in the U.S.; creating a healthier culture within a large consulting firm
• Mental health and addictions care in Ontario; the elder care system at a provincial level; child and family welfare system in Australia; the system that is meant to protect, care for, and help children in the foster care system in Seattle; early childhood system in Colorado; how to balance parenting and paid work outside the home
• Ageism, longevity, and people over 50 willing to continue being active and contributing in Portugal; preparing for consequences of aging
• Behavioral health systems integration/transformation; a large health industry organization; introduction of sugar tax as a way to create better health outcomes in the UK; a hospital; the public health system in the U.S.
• Migration management in South Africa/SADC region
• Broadening corporate responsibility (especially in mining and now independent power production) to include community welfare and Social License to Operate in South Africa; CSR/ESG; the inclusive insurance ecosystem in twelve countries
• Myself; organizational within the context of business and individual transformative shifts during a significant life event, mostly US, Canada, Brazil, Colombia, and Western Europe and the UK
• Society in Romania; Korea; the future of Colombia
• A support group for those community leaders (volunteers, facilitators, coaches, ministry members, educators, change makers) who are trying to contribute to Ukraine’s victory; Myanmar youth activists in exile (civil disobedience movement)
• An undergraduate social sciences classroom; workplace culture at Ohio State University; nine local schools in communities experiencing disadvantage in Victoria, Australia; public schools in Berlin-Neukölln; social entrepreneurship education in primary schools in five countries; a multiyear project to improve schools in South Africa and Detroit by building the community
• The INGO system in the context of calls for locally-led development; the non-profit sector in Quebec
• Changing into a deliberative democracy; broadening citizen participation in municipal democracy in Montreal; participatory citizenship in Bogotá; participatory democracy across the world
• Municipal government in Minneapolis; a county government; public order in Hangzhou
• China’s economic system; small and medium enterprises association in Singapore
• The public sector in Germany and Canada; a small public sector org in the Netherlands
• Creating a wellbeing society at different communities in Thailand; Alternative Conflict Resolution
• Youth housing provision in the U.K.; the system contributing to youth homelessness in Northern Michigan; the financialization of housing in Canada
• Changing the role of engineers in addressing social justice and climate change in Canada, the U.S., and now internationally
• Car sharing in Canadian cities; sustainable mobility the Netherlands and Europe; large infrastructure programmes in U.K.
• The recordings of the two calls
  
  
  

Chat of observations about these experiences ("What patterns are you seeing? What questions are coming up for you?")

• Being able to identify/isolate the system and the specific problem inside it
• "Us vs. them " transforming into a "All of us"
• Talking together - across silos, teams, departments - and getting a share idea of problems and possible solutions
• Silos, segmented system, building bridges, communication and empathy
• I see a problem of silos, blame, enemies, adversarial relationships and no means or ways to construct or find common ground and this can lead to hopelessness, people tuning out, etc.
• Unsurprisingly: trust, relationships, and connection
• Common words for post-transformation: relationships, trust, sharing, learning mindset (humility), dialogue
• Silos to collaboration, importance of relationships and communication; Question - wondering what specific behaviours stayed the same and why?
• Shift from individualistic to collective. Increased communication and ability to listen for understanding of other’s perspectives. Increase collaboration/ownership/collective responsibility of the desired outcomes.
• Identifying and advancing changes on multiple fronts - socio-behavioural, technical, political, economic, cultural
• Normalizing new ways of being
• Re-directing time and resources
• Inspiring stories of change
• In reading through the last column, the phrase "sawa bona" comes to mind. They system in the first column doesn't always read like "people", but the last column seems to consistently represent the recognition of people in or as the system as a key contributor in the transition.
• 1) Diverse systems but common issues; 2) cooperation and coordination are universal issues in all kinds of systems; 3) dominant mental models dictate whether system change is possible, but also in which ways.
• Lack of collaboration, conflict, individualism, little coordination, win/lose negotiations, power games, self-interest, competition, voice not considered, poor sense of connection, silos, discrimination, fear, lack of collaboration, lack of trust.
• I am drawn to the phrase “a connected community is a prepared community.” Also struck by the need for a tangible way to uncover intangible systems.
• A common thread I see in effective action column is a lot of human/emotional intelligence work.
• "Systems" are broadly understood/defined, at all different scales and contexts
• Collective anxiety
• Problems start with a sub-group first mentality and get solved with understanding interdependence in the large collective (planetary)
• I wonder how as we (humans) seem to be less and less comfortable with disagreeing (conflict adverse and fearful of conflict) how will we be able to have the conversations that will enable change.
• Conflict is natural in daily humans live, so we can learn constructive ways to handle it, but most of the time we prefer to use adversarial ways. We are emotional beast but can learn to create a gap between stimulus and response.
• Taking the masks off = withdrawing our projections
• Important to understand and accept that all people have masks on.
• The most critical is to take the masks off. One feels vulnerability
• In keeping with that resistance/inertia aspect, I also see a thread in the table that speaks to creating space for systems to transform. If I can't see a space for me to safely/beneficially walk into, I might be very reluctant to move from where I am. Creating that space for people/systems to walk into takes a lot of shapes - lowering our masks, applying EQ, holding curiosity/ambiguity/conflict with grace, imagining new scenarios, etc.
• On the channel of complexity: I am seeing all interventions strive for the largest possible scale.
• Also made me think of how "transformations" (as those snapshots) may reverse in time as environments and contributors in the system continue to change.
• Great feedback here - I'm absorbing a few key one: engage in deeper dialogures; stop projecting bias on others - remain open; embracing, not avoiding, diversity and conflict as an opportunity for breakthrough results; understanding that systems change is a long game.
• Change the quality of relationships change the system via Otto Scharmer...
• I imagine that we/humans (in the U.S.) are seeking certitude in the midst of social upheaval/ change/shift in the collective. Hence, different and conflictual ideas and points of view vie for status.
• If and when systems are dynamic, each intervention generates alternative realities (or micro-realities) and most of the time, we cannot predict them, nor control, or manage in a traditional way, we rather live with and engage with those involved and interested.Until we find better ways (multiple), that inspires and influences (or not) others… but the transformation is ongoing.
• Perhaps that is a behaviour of transformation - BEING courageous and vulnerable is what gives permission to others to do the same.
• How to engage/encourage young people in systems change. How do we need to “be” to bridge generational gaps?
• There are at least four levels of system change; operational level is the first, collective-choice rules is the second, constitutional-choice the third, and metaconstitutional the fourth level. Sometimes system change at the operational level is not feasible without, first, system change at a deeper level. Usually, policy makers focus on one of these levels, thus missing the point.
• Patterns I see are: collective action; demand for change; external forces that push us to act differently; and self and collective knowledge and healing.
• Relationships seems to be a common thread. Mostly lack of them or bad relations, people not working together.
• The importance of creating frameworks to understand interconnectivity and also system actors who are siloed in some way
• Building agreement on vision/values/direction. How to integrate enthusiasm during such processes into reality in systems? How to translate agreements into actual behavioral change?
• Some examples describe systems with clear, objective characteristics - which I did not look at myself. A great need for collaboration and pain when not reaching it
• Collaborations and connections seem to be a key starting point. My wondering is: to what extent do exisiting systems enable/reinforce relationships and networks to start/be nurtured? Are there example where we don't rely mostly on individual risk takers who are willing to take the first step to building those networks?
• Patterns: Communication practices, collaboration practices, bringing people together through dialogueQuestion: Do these patterns follow through regardless of the AMBITION of the system transformation?
• There seem to be point in time perspectives. If you looked at the same systems described in a different time frame and problem sets, would we identify the system the same way?
• Conversations/engagement between otherwise distant parts of the system (different layers, different areas).
• Often the “systems” don’t always perceive themselves as systems; the role of funding and its power; the role of existing paradigms and/or shifts in paradigm played in generating possibilities.
• Energy inserted into the system to spark the change.... whether from CEO demanding, small groups with a vision, individuals wanting something different.
• Many of the stories illustrate how intractable existing systems can be and/or how easy it is for them to return to “snap-back”
• Collaboration needs structures and relationships. We often focus on the structures and the relationships make a huge difference.
• These examples are piquing my interest on the 'stickiness' of these changes. Some explicitly state that the changes didn't last, and I'd be curious to distinguish between examples that stood the test of time and those that didn't (and look for differentiating characteristics between those two groups)
• Mirroring personal-system transformation.
• Transformation for me requires identifying an existing mindset that shapes the outcomes. Typically trying to confront this mindset with data does not influence those who we think might collaborate for better outcomes. Maybe it is necessary to behave like others in the system but using a different mindset eg be “competitive in order to win “ but delivering different outcomes.
• On the other hand, some of our contexts are not controlled.. or organised. So we move from chaotic to chaotic not always controlled to open.
• Pain might not be an indicator of readiness.
• And WHOSE pain matters?
• That brings up for me transformations that make things worse overall, but better for those pushing the transformation. 'Drawing the circle' too small can cause all kinds of nonsense (e.g., higher costs while claiming cost savings)
• Yes for the points of pain or "no more". as a transformation point, turned into the gold of offering changes system so others won’t experience what hurt us so much.
• I am NOT apart from the system…so being engaged in transforming a system will change me. I will see things differently, I will understand things differently.
• I wonder if one of the reasons we're not getting change to happen or to stick is because we focus too much on the rational aspects and not enough on the emotional and spiritual aspects.
• I wonder about rational AND emotional and spiritual but am so aware of the need to focus on relationships.
• Instead of systems mapping, what if we had healing circles?
• Welcoming transcontextual awarenesses, impact of personal lived experience of leaders within systems that are/have collapsed. What level of bio-physical capacity or temporal perspective are we connected to here?
• Here’s a generative paradox: an essential condition of Generative Dialogue is wide-spread recognition among itsparticipants that deep change of the status quo is necessary, accompanied by their widely-shared conviction that such deep change cannot come from unilateral action by any individual or group, nor from reliance on lessons learned in the past, and that essential condition is also the reason that Generative Dialogue cannot be created, only discovered and welcomed if and when it occurs.
• 100% agree with Alan on the role of setting goals/targets that also provide a framework for what matters to measure and then how to measure how the multidimensional system is changing in aggregate/average, beyond the pains and reversals happening in any individual dimension
• Replying to "I wonder if one of t..."and how system change relates to trauma experiences of system participants and decision makers
• Replying to "I wonder if one of t..."or perhaps more broadly, we can miss deeper structural or human aspects in our shifts. Healing comes to mind as a bypassed step in Western change initiatives
• Have healthy relationships requieres a lot of emotional intelligence
• I’m wondering about the role of power and its contribution to the work of transforming systems.
• We focus on the processes in the system - the steps, the forms, the sequence, where the funding goes, whatever. But we rarely if ever talk about how the trauma caused by the system. Instead of talking about changing processes, what if we talked about healing trauma?
• Individually I can change faster than the system can change.
  
  

Chat of check outs from these calls ("One new insight, question, or confusion you are taking away from this meeting")

• One everyday habit (via Otto via Bill O Brien) is that the interior condition of the intervenor determines the success of the intervention.
• I am seeing a lack of changes in the systemic/policies/processes that have an impact on internal power dynamics.
• The question HOW DO SYSTEMS GET TRANSFORMED…What is the WHY?
• What conditions enable system transformation - and HOW DO WE KNOW?
• As I think of behavioral change, and shifts in the dynamics of the system, I keep thinking about an underlying shift in the “movie that I am experiencing” I see that there’s an underlying shift in the source from which behavior, actions, communication, etc. come from. A shift from an “old movie” that I may not have been aware of that I was living, toward a new, or emerging (with potential), or movie that is aligned with a preferred state (of me, the system, my relationships - it may vary). Movie holds the whole experience, and would be beyond mental model.
• Many stakeholders have too much to lose if systems change, and so there is resistance.
• Need for a common goal...
• INTENTIONAL systems change: this is the question.
• It sounds like you may want to take a systems change approach to answering your question - maybe look to some systems practice tools that may help unpack the question. Could we develop a systems map for the meta question of what enables/inhibits systemic transformation - help us see the factors and how they are connected and where leverage might be in the "meta" system of systems?
• Humility about what role we can play. The bigger the system, the smaller the role.
• If we free ourselves from the idea that it should be a system transformation for good that we can draw learning and inspiration from, I think we can learn something different and insightful. And then use it for good
• Consider different personality types.
• How we hold or relate to our own expertise has a powerful effect on how we effect the system...
• Cultural intelligence is necessary.
• Cultural tolerance…
• Small groups with a high internal diversity may start a dialogue with their big system, discovering what resonates. It goes both ways. No all such small groups are equally diverse or have an equal exposure.
• How does NATURE produce systems transformation?
• If language really does create or shape our reality, I'm conscious of the fact that in perhaps too many environments our language (in a group of any size) is often better suited to the creation of conflict versus its resolution.
• A couple of observations: The framing of "habits of systems transformers" centers the realm of analysis to the individual.But all individuals aren't equal. Putin had a lot more power and resources available to him, to upend the world order through aggression. Your provocation, Adam, suggests to me that we need to evaluate the power we have to trigger change.The framing of system transformation and might imply a positive direction. What's positive? For whom?
• Rise and fall of systems: what can I learn from each direction?
• Are the people in this room representative enough of our world in order for us to be having a meaningful and rich conversation about this topic?
• Moving beyond the before and after transformation
• My initial mindset when I answered the prompts in the Google Doc, I was inspired to write about positive system transformation. As I responded, I could see the positive and negative changes that emerged with the transformation. That led me to think more about the pattern of positive transfomations in the Doc, but as the conversation has continued to unfold, I am inspired and want to understand more about the behaviors/habits/impetus for system change that is negative...or a falling apart of a system
• Starting at the edge margins of the system to discover research the theme of the book a counterintuitive direction
• What is a way to think about small and impactful interventions.
• There are so many ways to express similar ideas, and these ideas are all partial and complementary. Very useful to develop a language we all understand.
• It begins with the individual, and continues into dialogue with the other(s).
• There is definitely one more person in the world that’s struggling with the same issue I am and I am not alone is trying to figure out how to bring peace or sanity in my situation.
• What can we learn from massive system transformations (AI, capitalist systems etc) that are not necessarily for the benefit of the planet, to use that FOR good transformation.
• How can we explain context behind any transformation, positive or negative? From whose perpective do we define positive and negative?
• All transformations are not for the better for mankind, we must understand the intentions behind the masks.
• I am curious about the scale of change (individual to small system to large system) and the notion of time (do we have enough time?) and intention.
• The intersection of influencing how people act in their “square meter” and the notion of bravery and vulnerability.
• How can the transformation be sustained? It is soo easy to go back to old habits and behaviors
• Key question I’m taking away: how can small group change translate into bigger system change?
• Adam, you are modeling a differnt way of facilitating transformation…and we as a community will be changed as we share about change.
• People work on system transformation, so why is so difficult to keep a peaceful society
• I realise and value the diversity and experience of the group…I might need to explain the experience and context behind my comments.
• I have so much to learn and understand.
• Does it matter where you start, as long as you know there are different starting points?
• I realize that I need a mix of courage, humility and vulnerability
• I’m thinking about the complexity of systems - overlapping, interwoven, within each other …all moving, changing, shifting. The need to surf and be highly adaptive, to look for negative transformation in parallel with what we hope/want to see.
• My thoughts are with time and timing. When is there a “ripe” time for system change and what makes it “ripe”? And what elements are to be considered for timelines?
• What is the relationship between the square meter and the larger system - are there systems that are so big, that individual actions/influence are meaningless within it? Also, interested in the last comment from Jess - how a system can be moved by a thousand tiny cuts - she was presenting this in the context of undesirable change, but maybe this can happen in the context of desired change - systems change by a thousand tiny cuts ...
• When the pace of change accelerates, independent of who does what, the stress it creates weakens existing lines of communication and people hide or hunker down
• How does culture influence transformations?
• How to identify and articulate (simplify?) themes in systems change and still conserve the complexity and art.
• The question "How do systems get transformed" is taking me on a journey along the agency+hope/powerlessness tightrope. I wonder if there is a deeper skill for systems transformer in navigating that paradox.
• Getting better in touch with my transformer-self, my self-system context, and the larger collective self-system context (systems, souls, and society).
• What should we focus less on now in order to see more of the positive systems transformation in the world?
• Adam, there is often tremendous insight in "what didn't work" - are you also interested in examples that squarely flopped?
• Patterns: the differences between before and after have a wide range highlighting the Transformation as a word covers a large ground.
• Thinking about what we can learn about change from nature.
• Replying to "I wonder if one of t..."I'm learning so much on this from our reconciliation journey and the wisdom our indigenous leaders are gifting us all with
• The difference in time constructs between the individual and the collective (System)
• Seeing ourselves as systems as well
• Thinking more about how we need to be explicit about the persona transformation that are required/likely/possible when we are working to shift a wider system.
• Given the comments about the cyclical nature of this work…I’m wondering about how that reconciles with my understanding that transformation suggests a fundamental (more lasting) shift
• The challenges of systems change when individual parts of the system are viewing their roles in the system very differently
• The interplay between personal transformation and org transformation is more nuanced and complex than I previously thought
• I'm impressed how deeply some of us can describe their systems
• Replying to "I wonder if one of t..."There is also grieving for a previous identity (e.g. the powerful man or the 'good white person') or vision of the future (e.g. our children should have better/more materially wealthy lives than ours) that may need to be given up to allow the system to change
• The multi-generational perspective as a lens is heightened for me. It was there but the significance grew.
• Check out: Fresh - we are speaking the same language. So the question of the language of change making
• I think what is hard is the time it takes - I appreciated the invitation to consider the length of time. What we are working on today is for the planet and future generations - rarely will it be for us here today.
• Thinking about the scales of change in systems, and how change(s) happen over multiple times and spaces.
• The fragility of transformation (the risk of more suckiness)
• thinking about the Hudson river flowing back and forth... and what that is telling us about systems change
• confused more about the way individuals and groups take or don't take agency.. how do we step towards systems that support taking action even when its hard and it hurts
• How can we get more recommendation of the randomness? Of the moments when the impact of an action aligns with an opening that we didn’t know about/
• Interestingly I walked into this meeting feeling revved because I ran from a soccer field and I'm leaving thinking about the speed at which people can prepare for and absorb change, their capacity and alignment
• Collaboration among different generations - who are the youngers that I could collaborate with?
• Given the scope and scale of this topic, I’m more deeply aware of how challenging — and yet valuable — it will be to distil “everyday habits”
• Why aren’t we just content with the status quo? What is it in us that wants change?
• How focusing on any one insight tends to defocus other insights, sometimes creating more clarity, sometimes less.
• The value of suspending…despite the pull to have answers…maybe ideas I have don't get us where we need to get…dig into what seems to have worked...
• I'm realizing I have some things I have thought about but not yet allowed myself to feel or emote around systems change…and if I'm not brave enough to do the emotional work myself, how can I facilitate that with the groups I work with?
• The new thing--it depresses me to say it--but I think in our society we have to compete. SO compete, collaboration can come after.
• One insight I had was how personal changes in my mind, perspective or life were reflected in my desire to create a change in the systems I have been part of. And conversely system changes in the outer word created inner shifts and changes for me. It gives me yet a re-affirmation of no separation between individual and collective.
• Many of the changes we listed took many years to take place. And yet we change so much faster sometimes. How do we pace change through our habits?
• Wonderful discussion by so many thoughtful, like-minded folks. I guess I’m struck by the challenges of applying this collaborative energy to bridging the partisan/polarization divides we all struggle with in our work
• I’m also so curious about change: change from what to what? From where to where?
• Many of the examples and conversation seem intentional, causal - but often these things are kind of random matching that happens, so all one can do is increase the probability of a match - probabilistic system change with lots of non-change, connections that never happened, efforts that didn’t find an opening, etc.
• And/or how much of our version of things is sense-making versus causality.
• I work at Harvard Divinity School and we talk about the importance of understanding the wide range of roles religion plays in our work in order to open up moral imagination about what can change. Sitting here listening and observing, I see moral imagination as a beacon and opening for systems change in a deeper way than I did before. At the same time, I want to echo the importance of relationships. Even in our thoughtful community, we are experiencing the pain of deep divisions and lapses in humanity around the horrors in Israel and Palestine. But we have to keep caring about each other and working hard to see new ways forward.
• I’m wondering about who is a systems transformer? Is it a designation that anyone can claim?
• I didn't come out with something new but the discussion reminded me of the origin of System Change which is family therapy. Systems have no goal except to stay in balance. That is why change of system is so difficult. We all know the change curve, where change first goes positively and then comes into a critical phase.
• I am thinking about time - how often we do not notice/credit/recognize a systems change. The systems that shape being a woman have changed much since my mother’s time, as have the systems that regulate LGBTQ people. How can we imagine a future shift, if we do not see the long view past?
• I wonder which kind of system we individually are focusing on:personal transformation (one person, closed), organizational change (many persons, semi-open), societal transformation due to existential threat (many people, fully open).
• Resonating with the concept that systems fit within generations and that systems transformation builds on or tears down what has come before it - no judgement in build or tear down - there's a place for both
• Change without transformation
• I'm connecting with the overwhelm some feel from change…slowing down & going deep seem key for meaningful & lasting change...I'm looking forward to exploring that more
• The idea that we internalize systems as distinct from noticing the living system we are part of.
• Aware of how when we are relaxed and operating from humility, that you are modeling, Adam, new space opens for insight and questions. Important part of the connection between individual and system change and collaboration.
• Thanks for the opportunity! Looking forward to the journey, getting lost and found, the rabbit holes and the profound!